Conspiracy theories

[RedOctober]

I wonder how conspiracy theories are formed.
It is possible, that certain facts are so obvious that people spontaniously react and express what they think.
Or, a conspiracy theory is "leaked" into the media to influence public opinion into ridiculizing that theory, and in that way being able to do just that.

In a way it's like..

Media
-The nazi's have concentration camps where they kill millions of people...

Untill today there are still people that deny they existed.

---------
What do you think of this:

American Christian Fundamentalist Leader Calls For Global War

By Yoginder Sikand

17 November, 2005
Countercurrents.org

If Christian fundamentalists are to be believed, America's invasion of Iraq and the consequent brutal slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians in that country are all part of a grand divine plan that will finally culminate in the 'second coming' of Jesus Christ. Establishing an empire that will extend all over the globe, Christ will rule like a powerful monarch, saving those who believe in him and dispatching non-believers, all non-Christians and non-conformist Christians, to everlasting perdition in hell. This is no childish nonsense for millions of Christian fundamentalists, who sincerely believe this to be predicted in the Bible. Not surprisingly, American Christian fundamentalists are today among the most fanatic supporters of Bush's global imperialist wars, in Iraq and elsewhere, which they see as in keeping with the divine mandate. They are no eccentric or lunatic fringe elements, for today Christian fundamentalists exercise a powerful influence in American politics. Among them is George Bush himself, who insists that the American invasion of Iraq has been sanctioned by God, with whom he claims to be in personal communication.

Further reading on:

http://www.countercurrents.org/us-sikand171105.htm

[RetArt]

Hmm. the fact that Nazis did not think the stories about genocide is true, was greatly based on their previous views on Allied propaganda. In the book "interviews of Nürnberg" many held captive said that "once you hear enough of enemy-propaganda you stop to listen, better yet believe it". Allies and before all Britain was famous for it´s "manufacturing consent", not unlike the later Orwellian version in 1984

And then there is the psychologic side of things. It is very difficult and hard for ones psykhe to understand that you have been involved in, or supported a group that does such inhumane acts. It is better to think it did not happen. Specially when you have a grudge against the ones that tell it. Not to mention that for a long time there was not a mention about genocide in the german historybooks..

And on the latter part.

yes. great. then we´d have two weirdlooking warmongerers. Christian fundamentalists corner introduces Jesua Ha Nostri. Long haired, hippie-looking bearded carpenters son- re-incarnation.
On the rebuplican corner, big-eared, lepreconish son of a president.

[PoisonIvy]

Conspiracy theories are basically a bunch of non related facts ,on one subject, being linked up together to form some sort of conclusion.
Example: my personal favourite - the Monroe suicide.
Link up together 'boinking the president' and 'the mafia' and WHAM! She was murdered.
That's how conspiracy theories get started.
The difference with conspiracy theories and fact are the words ' Conclusive evidence', ie things that are actually linked together. Going back to the example of the Monroe suicide. Link up 'depressive', 'pills' and 'alone' and you have SUICIDE.
As for the concentration camp denial. There's evidence they exist. There is evidence of the destruction that happened. Those who don't believe are in a little something called 'denial'.
And for the latter part. Am I the only person that thinks someone's been slipping drugs into Bush's coffee?

[void]

tell the people i met in israel that concentration camps never existed, the ones with the tattooed numbers down their inner arms.

[A.I.Tokito]

I wish I could find that article...

It was actually about a Holocaust survivor who had met one of those "The Holocaust never happened" theorists. It states that they had lunch until the subject was brought up. Note that neither knew about the other's view of the Holocaust.

The theorist asked about the nasty scar the guy had on his arm and the man stated he had recieved in a concentration camp. That's when the theorist yells to the man, stating the survivor was a complete liar and the Holocaust had never happened.

Pretty soon, the police had to pry off the survivor and two other people from the theorist. However, the theorist ended up arrested for causing a public disturbance. XD

[BrIONwoshMunky]

I stopped listening to the conspiracy nut at work when he tried to use a quote from a movie as proof for the US actually setting demo charges and blowing up the WTC. Chain Reaction... I think, the shitty one with Keanu Reeves... I think... Anyways, in the movie, Government bad dude tells goodguy that "We'll just blame it on the Arabs", when questioned on the cover up.

Of course this was explained, by my conspiracy nut co-worker, as yet another government plot to overthrow the world with movies ect ect...

[teh anarchist]

Well said, Void.

I've seen and talked to a man who was in a concentration camp. I saw the tattooed number on his forearm. I heard him talk about the work he was forced to do. I saw him break down about talking about the last time he saw his wife and child.

Even though I have witnessed this in person, I still cannot say for a fact that concentration camps existed. I wasn't there, and neither were any of these "theorists," so who is to say if they existed or not other than those who WERE there?

[OmegaZeto]

We know they existed because we busted into them, shooting Germans and freeing the people stuffed into them. We videotaped everything about them, including the digging of massive graves to contain the dead there. I also saw a documentary detailing the worst of the various camps, and there's way too much evidence FOR the camps for me to believe they weren't real.

[void]

google/googleimage the following..

treblinka.
auschwitz.
belsen.
nazi holocaust.

i guess it's all photoshop :rolleyes:

[BrIONwoshMunky]

Of course Void. Photoshop, and a massive brainwashing and tatoo'ing frenzy in the 40's. :rolleyes:

[void]

a massive brainwashing and tattooing frenzy

no, that was the '90s.. ;)

[BrIONwoshMunky]

The 60's?

[RetArt]

Hmm.. Actually OmegaZeto, you did not bust in, you did not videotape, you were never at Auschwits. The soviet army entered ther freeing the prisoners, not the US. Film footage was mostly done by germans themselves (as weird as that might sound), or then soviets after arriving there. Allied forces filmed tapes about concentration camps long after the leaving of the nazis. I believe they were there, but I also believe that the number of jews killed in inaccurate (~6 million). It might be more might be less. "The interviews of Nürnberg" shows that there were many things affecting the count. Camp-leaders tried to strenghten their status by claiming that they killed more jews that they actually did. Then there are many who died, and never got booked in. Also the allied propaganda had a role in the bodycount. In Nürnberg they used numbers like 3 million, 5 million, 6 million and 7 million.

[OmegaZeto]

Hmm.. Actually OmegaZeto, you did not bust in, you did not videotape, you were never at Auschwits. The soviet army entered ther freeing the prisoners, not the US. Film footage was mostly done by germans themselves (as weird as that might sound), or then soviets after arriving there. Allied forces filmed tapes about concentration camps long after the leaving of the nazis.

By first saying I'm wrong and then agreeing with me, do you hope to NOT look like a fucking moron? Don't even address me if you're going to be so cock-ass stupid as to assume that when I say "we" I mean "ONLY THE UNITED STATES, TEH COOLEST COUNTRY EVAR AND WE WON WW2 AND U SUCK".

Asshat.

[RetArt]

So you meant everybody else but the nazis. Somehow when one describes some action being performed by "we" it gives the idea that it is some organisation, country or group you are involved in. And you lived in the US. How could I have known tha you are actually russian

[OmegaZeto]

So you meant everybody else but the nazis. Somehow when one describes some action being performed by "we" it gives the idea that it is some organisation, country or group you are involved in. And you lived in the US. How could I have known tha you are actually russian

Again, you make an idiotic comment based entirely on made-up bullshit from your own head. If that's how you discuss things, I'm glad I pulled out of the Creation thread when I did. Hypocrite.

[RetArt]

phhsst. Let´s not get into this again. I posted as a reaction to your posts.

You told that YOU busted into them, freeing the ones at concentration camps. I said that it was actually the soviets, as I had the image that you would have been american. You said "we". I did not know you did not mean to.

So let us stop this before I get pissed. Read before you post. And if I am not seen "fit" to straighten your crooked knowledge let somebody else do it. Or then take it to B&T.

[RedOctober]

Hmm.. He seems a bit fucked up..
Now I am not allowed to generalize anymore, but certain people seem allways to get pissed over nothing.
OmegaZeto also seemed American to me.
I have seen lots of pictures in a time they didn't have photoshop yet.

But now that we are talking about concentration camps..

There are loud rumors about CIA camps in secret places in Eastern Europe.
People have spotted numerous details about airplanes that seemed to be used by the CIA for transporting prisoners.

As you see, the CIA dudes are copycats of the nazi's.

[curliestalicia]

Why did the allies win the war? For at least two reasons; Hitler made a huge mistake by marching into Russia, and we all worked together to get rid of him.

The US didn't get its head out of its ass until after Pearl Harbor..before then the government (I cannot speak for the citizens) felt Europe could handle the problem..Isolationism, I believe, is what the term was..Lo and behold we discoverd that yes even we were a target..

As for the concentration camps, I find it hard to believe that people actually aren't sure they existed...Not only the surviors, the soldiers who found them, as well as those who perpertrated the crime agreed that yes they existed..Horrible evil things occured there..I suppose though that through the withering of time (which was not that long ago really) certain atrocities become possible speculation..Sick really.

I also find it hard to believe that when a country was invaded and then was subsequently liberated that the citzens were taking count on who got there first..I think they were just happy to be alive and thanking God or whoeverelse that someone ANYONE came to help...disgusting that after so few years people begin to quabble and trivialize that great victory.

As far as some fundamentalist Christians thinking that the so labeled "Bush's" wars will bring on the second comming of Christ..well it's possible that some people may believe that, but not everyone thinks it happens to be the case.

[yellow fish]

bieng from south africa and seeing ur country in the news all i can say is im glad i live in Cape Town.

everything i hear bout bush is what will b labled as a conspiricy theory in 50 years time

i would b ashamed to b american

and i think its hilarious that "conspiricy theorys all seem to have root in your country"

in our situation in africa our goverments do what they want and dont even bother to cover it up and we just cant do a thing about it so thats why we dont have conspiricy thorys

have a wonderfull live in your "free country" hahahahahahaha:mfinger:

[vIoLeNcE0969]

question here.
werent P.O.W's stationed at some concentration camps during WWII???
i couldve swore there were some

[Shaman Yoh]

bieng from south africa and seeing ur country in the news all i can say is im glad i live in Cape Town.

everything i hear bout bush is what will b labled as a conspiricy theory in 50 years time

i would b ashamed to b american

and i think its hilarious that "conspiricy theorys all seem to have root in your country"

in our situation in africa our goverments do what they want and dont even bother to cover it up and we just cant do a thing about it so thats why we dont have conspiricy thorys

have a wonderfull live in your "free country" hahahahahahaha:mfinger:

Dude, I realize that you were born in South Africa, but since you managed to crap out a message as incoherent as the above, you should know enough English to not sound like a dumbass. And yes, I'm having a wonderful life in my free country. For example, America is a "Democracy". It's a simple concept. All you do is "vote" for the person you want to be leader. Whoever gets the most votes wins! Only Florida could screw it up! Almost forgot: Hahahahahahahaha

[Ahnold]

The idea of denying the holocaust isn't that it didn't happen - it is that it didn't happen the way it was first reported. The initial figure of 6 million Jews killed has been revised to about 1.1 million prisoners killed, of which a great majority but not all, were Jews. The other point is that there is no concrete evidence that prisoners were gassed. There is circumstancial evidence and expert testimony against and a lack of evidence for, the facilities being used as such. There were a lot of deaths and atrocities and mass graves, but the uncovering of facts is slowly deflating allied propaganda on this one.

[Ahnold]

double-post

[RedOctober]

The idea of denying the holocaust isn't that it didn't happen - it is that it didn't happen the way it was first reported. The initial figure of 6 million Jews killed has been revised to about 1.1 million prisoners killed, of which a great majority but not all, were Jews. The other point is that there is no concrete evidence that prisoners were gassed. There is circumstancial evidence and expert testimony against and a lack of evidence for, the facilities being used as such. There were a lot of deaths and atrocities and mass graves, but the uncovering of facts is slowly deflating allied propaganda on this one.

That is bullshit.
American propaganda didn't fancy any publication about concentration camps before the war was ended. After the war there were photo's published, and there are people who survived the camps, who all tell the same stories.
And of course the Germans did some tricks to hide what they were up to.
They found out, that you could do a lot of things with groups of people as long as you avoided panic. That lessons were very soon picked up by other totalitarian regimes.

[Ahnold]

I'm not disputing the fact that the sun revolves around our world, which is flat - I'm just suggesting new knowledge changes old ideas that are taken as gospel because we were told so.

(Extracts from The Holocaust Industry by Norman G. Finkelstein of the City University of New York (published by Verso publishers, London and New York, 2000)):

'The Holocaust may yet turn out to be the "greatest robbery in the history of mankind".. The Holocaust industry has clearly gone berserk.'(p 138-9).

'Through its deployment, one of the world's most formidable military powers, with a horrendous human rights record, has cast itself as a 'victim' state, and the most successful ethnic group in the United States has likewise acquired victim status. Considerable benefits accrue to this specious victimhood * in particular, immunity to criticism, however justified. " (p3).

A Tricky Little Problem - The Missing "Holocaust"

"I've checked out Churchill's Second World War and the statement is quite correct-not a single mention of Nazi 'gas chambers,' a 'genocide' of the Jews, or of 'six million' Jewish victims of the war.

Eisenhower's Crusade in Europe is a book of 559 pages; the six volumes of Churchill's Second World War total 4,448 pages; and de Gaulle's three-volume Mémoires de guerre is 2,054 pages. In this mass of writing, which altogether totals 7,061 pages (not including the introductory parts), published from 1948 to 1959, one will find no mention either of Nazi 'gas chambers,' a 'genocide' of the Jews, or of 'six million' Jewish victims of the war."

- Richard Lynn Professor Emeritus
University of Ulster, December 5, 2005