WTF?! » Generally Speaking » The Issues » Fringe Theory

[pick001]

I don't know if this goes here, or in Brain Droppings. So mods, if this is in the wrong place, please move.

Something hit me late at night a few days ago. It turned out to be dirty sock, but afterwards, I had a revelation. Are my perceptions of reality the same as everyone elses? Like, when I see green, are others seeing red, black, or yellow? And I don’t mean from a stand point of color blindness or mental disease, I mean from a philosophical angle. How do I know that green is green for everyone? And it’s not like I can just ask you if my green is your red, because from the time you were born, you were taught what the colors and their names were, and therefore have been calling them as such, and seeing the world as such, for your entire lives.

But what about seperate realities? How do I know that I am really in a group of people interacting on the same plane of existance or at the same settings? That I am not the only real, sentiant being in my own universe and you all are living in your realities. That what I see of you, is really you, or a copy that acts how you would act by being programed to your habits, moods, and quirks?

While you may blow off that last theory as impossible, that no computer is that advanced, just look at technology today, particularly video games. Games like Forza Motorsport (Xbox/Xbox 360) and Juiced 2 (PSP/PS2/PS3/Xbox 360), there are programs in there that track how you drive, and create another driver for you to race against and use as a stand in for you, a program that is, in a sence, you.

For all of you that are probably asking yourself, no I am not on any drugs, nor am I mentally unstable. These senarios have been on my mind constantly and I deemed them "Blog Worthy". And, please, don’t leave any smart ass comments. If you have something to say about this, make it almost as intelligent. I’m not saying, however, that if you don’t understand a thing I’m saying that you shouldn’t post questions on it. I just don’t want things like "You are a retard!!11!!" or "WTF!!?!?! Dude you are on cRaCk!!!!1111!!!!one!!!". This is a serious discussion, even though I entered with a joke (half heartedly).

[Brain Spout]

I've pondered both of those things many times, and come to the conclusion:

On the color/perception thing, most likely not plausible based on the fact that we have a very good understanding of how color is generated/percieved, and such a thing seems a bit far-fetched. But as far as pondering the concept, it makes no real difference, it'd be interesting if it was provable, but has no significance.

As for this all being an illusion, and your own reality, I can assure you that you're wrong. Because I am most certainly a real person. I've pondered that before, but decided if taken seriously is a rather egocentric way of thinking.

[HrlyQnn]

I think each person operates in a fractured reality with their version of the "camera obscura" (see Karl Marx).

For someone that experiences deja vu often and knows that my own sense of humor tends to be morbid/warped/twisted...I learned it was best for me to not share some thoughts with others. A foundation in logic and science also helps you appear a little more sane. Being able to clearly distinguish any religious notions (belief to disbelief and how that shapes your understanding of the world around you) makes you more objective. Not doing this further distorts your lens of society..aka your perception of reality.

If you want to test this out take a hallucenogenic or two and try to function "normally". Most likely it's not going to happen, no matter how long you try to explain why you know the mirror in the bathroom can double as a portal to another dimension. You'll get face palms, lols, and mind fuck memes.

So short story long, yeah I don't think I'm being test driven in some alternate reality. Though I won't discount the possibility until proven otherwise. So my disbelief in itself cannot negate its possibility of occurring, just my belief that it could. That may sound circular, but belief and perceptions of reality are not definite.

[dustinzgirl]

For Brion green is actually a shade of grey. As well as for lots of dudes. So, perception is...perception...for different peoples. Or something.

[HrlyQnn]

 Quote: Originally Posted by dustinzgirl

For Brion green is actually a shade of grey. As well as for lots of dudes. So, perception is...perception...for different peoples. Or something.

In this case Brion's perception would be labeled a distortion as a majority of humanity would say that the color he calls Qa shade of grey" is indeed a shade of "green."

The OP seemed to be questioning which group/individuals are right: The majority that sees "green" or the minority that sees "grey"?

I would agree with BS as we are forced to use the context that applies for the reality we live in (society calls the shots and says your perception fails) even if it may not be the "true" reality. Also consider we don't have the means of determining some "truths" as false, even if presented with alternate hypotheses.

[dustinzgirl]

 Quote: Originally Posted by HrlyQnn

In this case Brion's perception would be labeled a distortion as a majority of humanity would say that the color he calls Qa shade of grey" is indeed a shade of "green."

The OP seemed to be questioning which group/individuals are right: The majority that sees "green" or the minority that sees "grey"?

I would agree with BS as we are forced to use the context that applies for the reality we live in (society calls the shots and says your perception fails) even if it may not be the "true" reality. Also consider we don't have the means of determining some "truths" as false, even if presented with alternate hypotheses.

He's colorblind so it would actually be a shade of grey. Not green. And, even that would depend on the perception since many view the whole as less important that the self individual, therefore Bri's perception would be correct and the worlds would be incorrect.

I win.

[HrlyQnn]

 Quote: Originally Posted by dustinzgirl

He's colorblind so it would actually be a shade of grey. Not green. And, even that would depend on the perception since many view the whole as less important that the self individual, therefore Bri's perception would be correct and the worlds would be incorrect.

I assumed he was colorblind...which is seen as a different perspective than the norm. If it were the norm, everyone that saw "green" would be colorists or something (wtf).

Everything else you said is poppycock . Brion's perception only matters to Brion, whereas if the world says it's true then your perception means infintely less until you can change how the world(or your society) views it. Thus the makings of social conflict and labeling theory.

/win

[RetArt]

This is something called the problem of qualia. Just google Qualia or go check some excellent posts by major philosophers of the field at consciousentities

[Killerbean]

^I'm gonna go read some of that.

But first... The way I see it; Your perception IS YOUR reality. Trying to convince others that your perception is the right one is a load of crap. I think the world would be a better place if everybody accepted this and communicated accordingly. Unfortunately it's a LOT fucking harder than it sounds... to me at least.

[HrlyQnn]

 Quote: Originally Posted by Killerbean

^I'm gonna go read some of that.

But first... The way I see it; Your perception IS YOUR reality. Trying to convince others that your perception is the right one is a load of crap. I think the world would be a better place if everybody accepted this and communicated accordingly. Unfortunately it's a LOT fucking harder than it sounds... to me at least.

Reality isn't definite so your reality can't be wrong unless it's compared with some other reality (like society's)....my way of saying .


RetArt's suggested link asks you to dismiss some key elements such as how "consciousness" means little to anyone else other than the individual if there is a lack of communication and understanding. All of which are based on subjective meanings and understandings, etc.

It's like saying "I am, because I am," which is great inside of your head. If you want to share that with someone it requires thinking/communication, or "I think, therefore I am."

[dustinzgirl]

 Quote: Originally Posted by HrlyQnn

It's like saying "I am, because I am," which is great inside of your head. If you want to share that with someone it requires thinking/communication, or "I think, therefore I am."

If you say I am because I am, then aren't you already using thinking and communication, in which case thinking I think therefore I am isn't actually using communication, just thinking, which is more inside the head than saying I am because I am because saying that requires communication.

The name of the game is I win.

So I win.

Not HrlyQnn win.

[Brain Spout]

Yeah, but I don't even know if you're real, so it's a hollow victory.

[eyeknow]

Postmodernism wins


It doesn't matter what you believe, perceive (or don't perceive) to be real, and what you reject as false. It is what you choose to believe as true that matters because it has consequences far beyond the phenomenological and obvious ones.


tl : dr = Your jacked up ape brain may not perceive Grey or green correctly...It may take a higher brain to truly appreciate it as it as a color truly is.

[pick001]

 Quote: Originally Posted by eyeknow

tl : dr = Your jacked up ape brain may not perceive Grey or green correctly...It may take a higher brain to truly appreciate it as it as a color truly is.

That's not the point.

For me, I may see green as green, and accept it as such because I have been told from birth that green is green. But maybe for the person who taught me that green is green, my version of red is their green, and they don't know that's contrary to my views because the same thing I see as green, and name it as such, is red to them, but they call it green because society has told them that it is called green.

So, since you don't like to read much, the short version is; how can one tell if one's reality is the same as everyone else's. How do we know if everyone else is experiencing what I am experiencing right now?


If anyone's interested, there is a philosophy book out there that, I'm sure, deals with some of these issues: The Matrix and Philosophy. The book doesn't mention the Matrix too much, only as reference points to the questions being explained.

[RetArt]

Basically people without sense of qualia (or e.g. the redness of red) would be mere zombies, or zomboids. This is one of the main differences between humans and computers, the subjective feeling of a thing.

Hrlqn, I think you read the wrong article on the page.

This is an area of much debate, with great names like Chalmers and Dennett on opposing sides. I´ve been studying it quite a bit and have been trying to tie it into personality constructs. I´ll get back on this when I have the time. Also worth reading is a book by Antti Revonsuo called "Inner Presence". He´s one of the leading consciousness researchers and a great author.